Just curious whatever happened with the LS-10 I heard years ago when DG acquired the assets of Rolland-Schnieder they were to make an LS-10 with a larger cockpit. I also saw that a few LS-10 were made and seemed to go very well. Anyone know how many were made, did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

DG "offered" them for sale for awhile. I'm not sure where they ended up with certification. Holger Beck was flying one in Germany for awhile that was speed limited. By the time DG was more or less ready to go the market was saturated with the ASG-29, Ventus 2cx and the JS-1 appeared right around then.

I also have no idea what happened with the LS-9s (updated self launch LS-6)..

2C

At 16:50 29 May 2015, wrote:
>DG "offered" them for sale for awhile. I'm not sure where they ended up
>with certification. Holger Beck was flying one in Germany for awhile
that
>was speed limited. By the time DG was more or less ready to go the
market
>was saturated with the ASG-29, Ventus 2cx and the JS-1 appeared right
around
>then.
>
>I also have no idea what happened with the LS-9s (updated self launch
>LS-6)=
>..
>
>2C
>

LS-9 & LS-10 both have EASA type certificates, the LS-10 is listed on DG's
website:
"The company currently produces sailplanes and motor-gliders type DG-808C,
DG-1001, LS8 and LS10 in multiple Versions."

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 2:53:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Just curious whatever happened with the LS-10 I heard years ago when DG acquired the assets of Rolland-Schnieder they were to make an LS-10 with a larger cockpit. I also saw that a few LS-10 were made and seemed to go very well. Anyone know how many were made, did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

There was one for sale for a while on W&W's; I believe it was in Canada.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 2:53:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Just curious whatever happened with the LS-10 I heard years ago when DG acquired the assets of Rolland-Schnieder they were to make an LS-10 with a larger cockpit. I also saw that a few LS-10 were made and seemed to go very well. Anyone know how many were made, did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

There will be an LS-10st for sale on Wings and Wheels shortly. Great glider! Bought a self launch glider. The one from Canada was purchased by a southeast pilot.

The rumor I've heard is that despite tweaks and tuning, Wolf Lemke and team couldn't make the LS10 substantially outperform the LS6.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 5:56:59 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> ...Lemke and team couldn't make the LS10 substantially outperform the LS6.

....The takeaway there being that the LS6 is a darn good glider, and hard to beat.

I know the LS-4,6,8 were great gliders. How does the LS-10 compare to the current crop of 15/18 meter birds, V2cx. ASG-29?


On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 6:15:23 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 5:56:59 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > ...Lemke and team couldn't make the LS10 substantially outperform the LS6.
>
> ...The takeaway there being that the LS6 is a darn good glider, and hard to beat.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 2:53:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Just curious whatever happened with the LS-10 I heard years ago when DG acquired the assets of Rolland-Schnieder they were to make an LS-10 with a larger cockpit. I also saw that a few LS-10 were made and seemed to go very well. Anyone know how many were made, did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

I little bit of truth to most posts to Jonathan's question. I was the LS dealer during that period and had over 20 orders for this very promising new 18M ship.
The fact that they had to pay cash for the (computer generated) molds bankrupted the LS company. DG took over but the deal ended up in the German courts, halting any production for almost 2 years. Most customers gave up waiting and cancelled. The first one we brought to the US in 2006 was prototype #2 and the only one that was build exactly as Wolf Lemke and Werner Scholtz had designed it. (With small 15M tips and large 18M tips, putting the break where it would optimize both configurations.) I just sold that one to a lucky glider pilot is SC! There were 2 more delivered in the US plus a "turbo", for a total of 4 in the USA.
Rick Walters flew my "10" at the 15M Nationals in Mifflin (2007) and was very impressed. He wanted one to fly in the Worlds in Germany and we arranged one in which he won the 18M Pre-Worlds...
It is a shame that due to the bad turn of events this glider never got the attention it deserves. I have put about 600 Hrs. in both configurations and it is an absolute dream to fly (as one of the UK flight reports noted "if you like the LS-6 and the LS-8, you will love the LS-10").
It is still in production and I think almost 30 have been build. Quite a few went to Australia where it is very popular, due to it's superior high speed performance. Sorry Bob, but it is quite a better performer than the LS-6 and as good as both the ASW-29 and JS-1.
Ed Hollestelle.

According to the DG website it is still for sale.

Don't forget that the LS-10 has a sustainer option. Something that LS-6 owners missed. If it also performs better than the LS-6 (and I have no reason to doubt that), then it is a viable option if people are looking for a replacement of their LS-6...

And I know some persons who bought one just for those reasons...

Am Freitag, 29. Mai 2015 18:50:15 UTC+2 schrieb :
> I also have no idea what happened with the LS-9s (updated self launch LS-6).
Out of production, only 10 were built.

I've been wondering about this question myself. As the owner of LS-10 #11 (the first production model to the USA) and I'm also a previous 18m LS-6 owner...I can (and cannot) answer this question.

The fit and finish of my LS-10 were perfect. Paul Gaines used to say "there is no such thing as a perfect glider from the factory" but this glider refuted that statement. DG gliders are finished beautifully...and the LS design under that beautiful finish was evident right down to the flying nun winglets in 15m as well as the curved 18m tips. The cockpit is the same as the LS-6 and maybe even a little tighter due to added reinforcements at the shoulders.

The performance is above and beyond the LS-6 (which I flew for 12 years) primarily noticeable in energy conservation/pullups, high speed glide and cockpit noise.

The handling is as good as any LS glider has ever been, and it feels like a slicker LS-6.

Now.....where has it been on the world stage? I dunno.
In my limited contesting I have flown alongside with ASG-29's without problem...mostly with XG and 8H.
I can only speculate about the possible differences in sponsorship philosophy between DG and the other manufacturers being a possibility as to why they are shunned at the worlds and big European contests.

That said, there seem to be NO LS-10's in the hands of "hot" competition pilots.
All four of us USA owners are decidedly only mediocre on the contest scenes at best....which does little to promote the LS-10 on the scoresheets.

Maybe someone with more world class experience gliding next to the LS-10 can lend some better insight? I for one would be interested in hearing about that.

All said, I'm keeping mine.

J4

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 2:11:43 PM UTC-4, blue-skies wrote:
> Am Freitag, 29. Mai 2015 18:50:15 UTC+2 schrieb :
> > I also have no idea what happened with the LS-9s (updated self launch LS-6).
> Out of production, only 10 were built.

You are speaking of the LS-9?
Placed in this thread, that is deceptive and confusing.

The LS-10 IS IN PRODUCTION.

The LS series gliders were just a bit too tight for me. However, I always wondered how the factory went bankrupt with producing the must have LS-4, LS-6, LS-8. I did see Ray"s 7V LS-8 and thought if someone was interested in massaging this glider it might do even better. If I remember it had no zig-zag tap and I think, it did not even have mylar on the elevator.

Both DG and LS were the only gliders to actually build in an air exit in the tail.

On a side note it is because of LS, and Lange, that I decided against ordering a JS-1C. A company with a single glider and low production rate doesn't instill confidence that they can remain viable. While the products from LS, Lange and Jonkers are wonderfully built, designed and bring badly needed fresh thinking to the community I will stay with manufacturers who have withstood the test of time. Just this reporters opinion.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:53:04 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> [snip] .. did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

2008 WGC Lusse, Germany
http://www.wgc2008.org/fileadmin/fcc/wgc08/Daten/Aufgaben/18m_Total.pdf
http://www.wgc2008.org/TASKS-RESULTS.369.0.html?&L=1
18M Class
Pos. 18 LS10T Nieradka, Zbigniew POL 5784

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:20:51 AM UTC+2, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> The LS series gliders were just a bit too tight for me.


Not quite true...
The LS3 and LS4 offer a lot more room. I dare to state that those cockpits are some of the roomiest on the (used) market. As I believe this fuselage was adopted for the LS9 as well. I sold my LS3 to a pilot over 2 meters tall and he fit in well.

The LS6, 7, 8, and 10 however all have the tight fuselage that not everyone is happy with.

"A company with a single glider and low production rate doesn't instill confidence that they can remain viable."

The common theme amongst manufacturers that go bust, gliders or powered, is expanding beyond their means and abilities. There's a very good reason Boeing and Airbus lift their production rates by fractions of an aircraft per month.

From where I sit, Jonkers appears to have provided a masterclass in how to do that. They created a non-aviation income source to fund expansion, formed partnerships with a university and a symbiotic business (M&D), kept their production increases incremental & considered (within their abilities and maintaining a healthy order book). They're presently working on a second model. I'd suggest it to be rather unfair to mention them in the same sentence as Lange.

CJ

I received this letter from the DG factory in answer to this question:


Dear John;



Thank you for your letter and sorry for my late reply.

As the DG head of sales I have to say that I am neither disappointed by the glider nor by the competition results the LS10 achieved and achieves.



I am disappointed because the legal dispute back in 2003 hindered DG to develop and build the LS10 for more than 2 years.

Within that time, Schleicher produced more than 100 ASG-29 which was a big disadvantage for the LS10 customer situation.



In the end only 1/3 of the customers who had signed an option stayed. That's the main reason why only 25 pieces have been built. The glider got no chance to get an appropriate reputation.



As an insider, I know that the glider's performance is equal to the ASG and Ventus and in some cases even has a better performance. Holger Back flew the LS10 in competition with great success until he stopped his competition career 4 years ago.

Our head of engineering, Jelmer Wassenaar qualified for international competitions multiple times and flew the LS10 during these international competitions. He currently builds his own LS10 here in the factory!



Thomas Melde recently won in Nitra on an LS10.



It's a pity that only 25 gliders are on the market. Most of them are owned by private owners without any ambition for competitions. That's why it is very calm around the LS10. But If I had the money, I'd buy one! Unfortunately you cannot afford such glider When your're in the 30s

But hopefully I'll have the chance to own one in future.



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Best regards



Stefan Göldner

Head of Marketing and Sales



Logo mit Slogan für e-mailDG Flugzeugbau GmbH

Otto Lilienthal Weg 2

D-76646 Bruchsal

Tel.: +49 (0) 7251 / 30 20 110

Fax: +49 (0) 7251 / 30 20 119



www.dg-flugzeugbau.de



Registergericht: Mannheim HRB 231792

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bruchsal

Final results of the above mentioned competition can be found here:

http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/pribina-cup-2015/results/open/task-8-on-2015-04-11/total

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 4:53:04 PM UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Just curious whatever happened with the LS-10 I heard years ago when DG acquired the assets of Rolland-Schnieder they were to make an LS-10 with a larger cockpit. I also saw that a few LS-10 were made and seemed to go very well. Anyone know how many were made, did they perform well, why are they not as popular as the other LS series gliders?

The LS10 missed the boat by about 2 years because of production delays attributable to the LS take-over. During that time the ASG29 captured a large part of the 18m market followed by the JS1. LS10s however do pop up in major comps including the Worlds last year in Poland but by comparison are fairly rare as most top comp pilots bought the 2 previously mentioned types.
I bought production glider #19 in September 2009 (Certification DEC 2009) and couldn't be happier. At the time I was living overseas and needed an 18m sailplane with a sustainer so I could fly in comps and 'self-crew' while on short visits back home. The ASG29 had a poor reputation for engine reliability & power output and Schleicher couldn't give me a time-line for the rumoured prop and engine mods. JS likewise didn't have a time-line for the jet sustainer installation and the Ventus 2 was already a dated design. I'd spoken to Miles Gore-Brown and read articles by Mac Ichikawa (6th Poland WGC 15m) who had won several European comps in the LS10 and that pretty much sealed the deal for me. I visited the factory, flew the glider and was very impressed with the quality of finish and beautiful engine integration. Since then I've flown multi 1000km flights in Australia in my machine and am always impressed with how good the LS10 is against the other 18m types in competition especially at high speed and 600kg! The LS10 has strengths and weaknesses as all of its competitors do but in the end the pilot is still the biggest factor. Rgds.

Hey Briand....

Just wondering what motivated you to take the letter from the factory I posted a few entries above and take it out of context, eliminate the source/signature and then redundantly re-post it???

J4

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 1:12:44 PM UTC+10, John Bojack J4 wrote:
> Hey Briand....
>
> Just wondering what motivated you to take the letter from the factory I posted a few entries above and take it out of context, eliminate the source/signature and then redundantly re-post it???
>
> J4

Hi J4,
I didn't see your post or read the whole thread inc the factory letter. My post simply reflects my happy experience with the LS10, that's it! Today was the first time I've viewed this blog. Rgds

On Tuesday, 2 June 2015 14:32:05 UTC+2, wrote:
> From where I sit, Jonkers appears to have provided a masterclass in how to do that. They created a non-aviation income source to fund expansion, formed partnerships with a university and a symbiotic business (M&D), kept their production increases incremental & considered (within their abilities and maintaining a healthy order book). They're presently working on a second model. I'd suggest it to be rather unfair to mention them in the same sentence as Lange.
>
> CJ

One also needs to take the economic circumstances and wages into account.
The South African currency is quite weak so converting Euros or Dollars to Rands is very favourable for a South African manufacturer.
Couple that with much cheaper labour compared to Germany and there is more margin to play with.

Wrong Mr. Surge!
JS quotes prices exclusively in Euro and the amounts are near identical to the top German models. No savings from "cheap labor".